About the author.

Welcome to The blog of whall

Come on in and stay a while… laugh a little. Maybe even think. Read more...

Hi, This is Wayne. This is my site, my stuff, my blog, blahblahblah. The site itself is powered by WordPress and the Scary Little theme. I thought it was cool, and I still do.

December
18
2007
5:09 pm
Categories:
Tags:
Post Meta :

The Fair Tax is getting more and more steam, and I’m more and more interested in it.  I like the idea of economy-incented taxation instead of just taxing wealth and double-taxing accomplishment.  I’m taxed and taxed and taxed (as you are, most likely).  Also, the Fair Tax seems to be a quick way to make sure undocumented workers (aka illegal immigrants) contribute to the economy and the funding of our government without having to alienate (no pun intended) or confiscate or deport or any of those things that are so emotional in nature.

Now there’s an online calculator you can use to determine the impact of the Fair Tax to you specifically.

fairtax calculator

It seemed safe enough to me to use, so I did and I’m pleased with the estimates:

fairtax example

Of course, since the people pushing the Fair Tax programmed the Fair Tax Calculator, I’m supposed to take it with a grain of salt, right?  Still, I like the concept and I haven’t heard of (or researched, to be fair) the down side.  The IRS is eliminated except for policing the collection of sales tax, so the country saves money there.  The government gets more money with how successful the nation is with the economy, so our leaders are incented to make EVERYONE more prosperous instead of just the wealthy or themselves.  People will re-use more items (supposedly to avoid the sales tax), so the environment will benefit.

Heard anything BAD about the Fair Tax?  Anyone?  Let me know.

And lo, the people did comment thus:

13 Comments

  1. Absurdist says:

    Wow. I would have $29,000 more dollars to spend under the fair tax. I could actually pay off my debt. That would be interesting. Sad that this is never going to happen.

  2. MarkDC says:

    Fairtax calculation my butt. Do you gullible fools notice what the hell is missing?

    Try opening your eyes to this farce. Fairtax is a crock, a total absolute crock. ITs wacked out nonsense. Its like those little stupid pills they used to sell to suckers, that supposedly let them use water in their gas tank.

    Yes – its that stupid.

    And this calculator shows exactly what I mean.

    Notice — it doesnt ask how much rent you pay. Wanna know why? Rent is taxed.

    Notice — it doesnt ask hom much car insurance you pay. Wanna know why? All insurance premiums are taxed.

    That means car insurance, health insurance, life insurance, all taxed at least 30% (It would be more like 60%, but lets pretend its 30%)

    Notice it doesn’t as how much medical cost you have. Wanna know why? All medical cost — repeat — ALL — medical cost are taxed.

    Gotta get cancer surgery and chemo? You could EASILY get a 50,000 TAX. Have your grandma in a nursing home? Thats taxed too – up to 30,000 tax a year.

    Funny how they forgot to include those thing — huh?

    YOu think its a co-incidence they didn’t include any of those things?

    Fairtax is a crock. Most people would pay far MORE tax – especially if you have any medical costs at all.

    Sure — you get your whole paycheck and even a prebate (so they say) But how the hell are the parents of a child with leukemia gonna pay these goons 70,000 in SALES tax?

    Funny how they don’t mention that.

    Fairtax wont work — for a lot of reasons. Look at fairtaxabsurdity at blogspot dot com. Or any of the other sites that are calling this goofy idea out, exposing it as a complete and utter farce.

    Yes, I should be more diplomatic. You might have been suckered into this nonsense, and get mad at me for exposing it. Well too bad. You should be mad at the con artist and goof balls that sold you this nutty wacked out idea.

  3. Ren says:

    MarkDC – To be fair, you currently pay rent and auto/life insurance with taxed money, so having those be taxed under the FairTax is no change. Health insurance is a bit different as it can currently be paid (in some situations) with pre-tax money. Likewise, medical costs are normally paid with money that has already been taxed, so that isn’t different under the FairTax either — except, of course, that if your medical expenses exceed a certain percentage of your income you can currently deduct the excess.

    I took a look at the blog you referenced and just like many other FairTax-critical sites I’ve seen in the past, the author seems to not have bothered to actually understand the FairTax.

  4. MarkDC says:

    Sure you can save money on the fairtax. If pig fly, if camels can play chess.

    I got news for you — Fairtax is a complete farce. Not a small farce, not a little wrong — its pure snake oil nonsense.

    So you did the calculator and thought you would save?

    Well lets pretend fairtax passes — and I hope it does. Lets say it passes. Lets say people don’t laugh it off national stage and it passes.

    Lets also pretend it doesnt destroy the economy is a month or two, from obliterating the new car and new housing market.

    Lets say you don’t lose your job cause this farce, and lets pretend it somehow last long enough for you to live a while under this farce tax.

    IF you pay rent — you will pay a lot more. If you buy gas – you will pay a lot more. If you pay car, home, or health insurance, all that is taxed — and you will pay a lot more.

    Now — shouldnt a calculator SAY soemthing about that? Renters will be hit very hard — why not place for rent?

    You think its an ACCIDENT that rent wasn’t included?

    Why wasn’t medical cost figured in? Medical cost — never taxed in any country in the history of the world — will now have the HIGHEST sales tax on EARTH. And they don’t include medical cost in the calculator?

    I wonder why?

    I could go thru a bunch of stuff — the point is, the fairtax is absurd nonsense, and if you didn’t realize that before, the calculator joke should wake you up

  5. whall says:

    MarkDC, while you may have an argument hiding in insult-fest you call a comment, I’m simply not that interested in working that hard to find it. I don’t know if you’re the son of a lobbyist working to protect his dad’s taxpayer-paid assets, an IRS employee worried about his job, or just someone who enjoys yelling and throwing out random facts (such as the 60% vs 30% figure), but I’ll give you a tip: you don’t get people to listen to your side of an argument if you call them names and insinuate they can’t see what’s in front of them.

    Let me address some of the things I was able to discern.

    For one, you say I’ll pay more for a car. I for one don’t mind. For one, I don’t buy a car every year. I buy one every 6-7 years. Or maybe I lease. But I’ll have a heckuva lot more money in my pocket from my paycheck.

    You say I’ll pay more for rent. I for one don’t mind. I’ll have a heckuva lot more money in my pocket from my paycheck.

    Same goes for medical, dental, insurance, and everything I spend money on. I’ll have a heckuva lot more money in my pocket.

    What about the interest on my money? The government takes the money right out of my paycheck before I can do anything with it. I sure would like a few extra thousand in my bank account earning interest until it’s spent. We’re talking 10’s of thousands of dollars over the years.

    And how about how the government gets it’s money? If the government only gets money when the economy is moving right along, based on consumption, then the governmental policies put into effect will only HELP the economy, because it’s the only way the government gets income. As it stands now, the government gets income BECAUSE IT CAN. They take your money before you even see it. And when they need more, what do they do? They just take more. It doesn’t matter what the economy is doing – they just take it.

    And what of the expense and overhead the IRS causes our government, just to police the fleecing of taxpayers? Initial estimates indicate that the fairtax method of collection and enforcement is tremendously cheaper and more efficient. Instead of a complex tax code similar to DNA sequencing, it’s just a percentage of sales. It’s been estimated that americans spend 6 billion hours and $260 billion preparing taxes. I for one am glad to think about it going away.

    Also, what do you think of the claim that prices will go DOWN due to the fair tax? For one, the fair tax is only on retail purchases, not used. Therefore, manufacturers will have to compete with alternatives, requiring them to be more efficient and reduce pricing to make it attractive to consumers.

    Also, what do you think about not allowing the government to change consumers habits by manipulating the tax code?

    Also, what do you think about the fact that we’ll actually be able to tax illegal activity? Drug dealers, tax scammers, and illegal immigrants do NOT pay income tax. Under the Fair Tax, in order to consume, they’ll have to pay tax.

    Wait, you’re not one of those people, are you? Are you against the Fair Tax because you’ve been getting away with some sort of tax evasion with the current system, and a change to that system is bad for you?

    You keep saying the calculator is a “farce” and that the tax is a farce and “you think its an ACCIDENT that rent wasn’t included” and I just don’t understand what you’re saying. Rent is included. It’s an expense. An expense I can now pay with more money in my pocket. I’m either paying the tax through withholding (not earning interest on it) or I’m paying the tax through my landlord (where I can earn interest on it). Btw, my landlord is paying less tax too, so I would think rent might actually drop, because his competitors will be dropping their prices.

    If you can come back here and present some arguments without being argumentary, provide some debate without debasement, and make sense without making enemies, you’re welcome to comment.

  6. whall says:

    FYI to readers of this post: There’s more debate going on at Mark’s blog’s post on the FairTax calculator – but I’ll warn you, most of the argument seems to still be of the “you idiot”, “you gullible fool” nature and the use of figures that we can’t find the source of, like 40% tax and 80% tax and $500 billion in health care taxes.

    I personally don’t want to support something that would suck. I’m not “going all religious” on this topic, so I don’t understand why some people respond so fervently with emotion and name-calling when a simple fact-based debate would suit me just fine. If there’s something wrong with it, state it. Support it with some evidence or editorial opinion. But don’t just sit back and say “you’re a fool for not seeing this” and expect anyone to listen.

  7. Tax Sanity says:

    Why doesn’t the calculator have rent included?

    Or those other things included?

    Just curious. Seems reasonable that the calculator would calculate the taxes you would pay under fairtax — and there is no place for rent in the calculator. There is no place for medical costs. There is no place for your car or health insurance, which would get the tax too.

    So a guy that paid rent, and paid his own health insurance, would sure have a lot higher taxes than the guy who already owned his home and had insurance paid by his work — which I guess isn’t taxed.

    I guess a lot of people don’t realize — whatever your rent is now, you would pay fairtax on it.

    Same with car insurance, life insurance, health insurance. All that is taxed under the fairtax. Few people seem to realize that. And now, the calculator comes out, and doesn’t ask for those kinds of facts — the exact kinds of things a person would need to know, to see if they paid a lot more under the fairtax.

    Since the prebate is included in the calculator — why not include the things you would pay with fairtax?

    Its really odd that its not included.

    Seems some people could pay a lot of taxes under fairtax – people who pay their own health insurance, people who rent, people who pay car insurance even. And the calculator should have been honest enough to list those things

    How can the calculator motto be “Dare to Compare” but then not “dare” to put rent, insurance, medical cost in there?

  8. whall says:

    Tax Sanity, I don’t think it’s odd at all. It does include it. See that “purchasing power” section? It’s in there. Basically, instead of my salary being taxed, I get taxed on consumption. The tax just moves from being something I never see (paycheck withholding) to something I see in each bill (paying rent, buying gas, paying for healthcare).

    Do you see it differently? Why do you say it’s not included? It also doesn’t include groceries, cable TV, gasoline, internet connection, lunch money, kids allowances, going out to the movies, etc…

  9. Tax Sanity says:

    Yes, I think a calculator that says “Dare to Compare” should put have some way to list what you consume — since comsumption is taxed.

    This seems as basic as can be. If you are taxed on your consumption — why not list your consumption?

    That’s not strange to you?

    Everyone doesn’t have the same consumption do they?

    SO yes, a calculator to let you see how much taxes you would pay, under a consumption tax, should list your consumption. Is this a trick question?

    And if you rented — you would be taxed on that rent. So yes, that would seem to be pretty basic – list the rent.

    Some people might pay half their income in rent. Another person might own there own home. The renter is taxed far more than the home owner. Wouldn’t you want to know that before you decided if you liked the fairtax?

    SOmeone might have large medical bills. Another person might have none. Since medical bills are taxed — wouldn’t the person with high medical bills want to know that?

    Someone might pay their own health insurance. Another person might get insurance paid for at work. But the person paying for it themselves, will have to pay a tax on their health insurance.

    Why wouldn’t the person want to know how much taxes they would pay?

    Isn’t that the whole point of the calculator?

    What am I missing here? Rent is taxed. Why not include it?

    This just seems real real odd.

  10. MarkDC says:

    So let me get this straight. You have a calculator that shows you how much you supposedly SAVE using the fairtax — but the calculator doesn’t ask you anything about your circumstances that could reveal high taxes.

    Great idea. Reminds me of a door to door vacuum salesman, or a carnival snake oil salesman of years ago.

    Why not use a pencil and piece of paper, and figure a 30% sales tax on your rent, and assume you have a medical condition, and need 170,000 in medical care. Plus, assume you have car insurance and life insurance premiums.

    Assume you have to pay utilities, like gas and electric,

    Assume you have to pay for food.

    Assume you have to pay for gasoline.

    Let me save you the trouble. You could have 60,000 in sales taxes.

    Also, figure that the sales tax could be 60% or higher. Then you have 120,000 dollars in sales tax liability

    Now here is the MOST whacked out of all the truly whacked out farces of the Farce Tax, I mean Fairtax – it doesnt matter WHAT your income is. You could only make 30,000 a year, and get a SALES tax of 150,000. Quite easily.

    You might well be retired — or living on your savings — and get cancer. And have very large medical bills. Medical bills you need to incur to stay alive — or maybe keep your spouse or child alive. Doesnt matter- you get a sales tax.

    What will you say to a person who makes 30,000 a year, and gets a tax bill of 130,000, mostly cause of medical bills?

    Does the calculator show any of that? Heck no.

    The calculator is a farce, and if you are going to be fooled by such an obvious bit of nonsense, it just proves a sucker is born every minute.

    Actually I hope this farce passes — apparently its the ONLY way for the fairtax groupies to wake up and see how they were fooled, conned, lied to.

  11. MarkDC says:

    You said Fairtax is picking up steam.

    Actually its falling apart. Its being relegated to a lunatic fringe, and some well meaning, but gullible, souls.

    The “Leaders” are accepting donations and selling their books, but no one is pushing this in congress.

    Odd — don’t you think?

    If this worked 1/10 as well as they claim, businessmen would be DEMANDING it. If you can cut GM and FORDS cost 23%, don’t you think they would be calling congress and begging for it?

    Fairtax is a crock. It really is. The calculator shows what a crock it is, unless you are fooled by that too.

  12. Mark says:

    Am I the only one that finds it odd that the calculator doesnt ask anything it should? Supposedly this calculator is going to ask you questions so you can find out how much it saves you.
    But it doesnt even ask if you rent. And rent is taxed. It doesnt even ask if you have high medical bills. All medical bills are taxed. It doesnt ask anything that really matters.

    So you have the calculator that avoids any questions that might actually reveal what you pay in fairtax.

    And that doesn’t seem to bother fairtax fans.

    Odd.

    You can all send me an email, tell me what your rent is, what your medical bills are, what you spend on gas, utlitlies, and car insurance. Tell me how much you spend a month, and I can tell you what your fairtax would be.

    But the calculator can’t tell you that. It avoids that.

    Odd, real odd.

    Marks last blog post..Do you Fairtax fans think what would happen??

Want to comment?

Hey, we all want to share our voice. And I particularly love comments, especially if you took the time to read my blog entry. I'll take the time to read your comment, I swear! But due to spammers, robots, and the fact that I want my blog to be PG rated, I need to approve the comments. This should be same day, but please don't get mad if it takes me a while to approve the comment.







Comment:


PLEASE help keep this blog family-friendly by refraining from profanity and vulgarity.


CommentLuv badge


Admin
tsk tsk

Ajax CommentLuv Enabled 336ad6ab990e8080f1c0ad1f892428a0