A couple days ago, Miss Britt wrote a great, thought-provoking post stating Healthcare is a Right. My comment (#66) ended up being so long, I’m going to use it as my post today.
Go over there and read her post, then my comment, and feel free to jot your thoughts over there or over here.
I’m truly interested in your opinion.
I dont really write over there so i will leave my thoughts here! I do not feel healthcare is a right. The constitution was set up so that the government would be split apart to prevent from too much power. Our founding fathers warned us to not give the government any unecessary powers that would take over aspects of our lives. They are there for foreign affairs and defense. The constitution does not outline any right for healthcare. It does not for the same reason massages and sandwiches are not a right. There are two major things wrong with this. One is the increasing power of government. We are completely changing the way we were founded and how we were intended to handle these issues. Secondly, the government has shown no evidence of being able to take over something and make it “good.” This is a little too close to socialism for my taste.
Of course it sounds very nice to think of “fairness” and of “equality” but no such thing exists. There will always be class divisions, people who can’t afford things others can because we are a democracy. Some excell some do not. But let’s not bring us closer to a socialist nation where we start paying to make everything “fair.”
“And if they want to reduce health care costs, they should act accordingly to stay healthy.”
I’d like to know how one acts to avoid getting cancer.
I approach this from the opposite end of the spectrum. I feel there should be free health care for everyone, and every time somebody starts classifying this as “socialism,” I want to punch them in the face. If this were the case, aren’t we already socialists because we offer free public schooling? Free libraries? Free parks? There are plenty of services we already get for free because it’s advantageous to our society to provide them. Adding health care would be just another benefit to our society, keeping us healthier as a nation because everybody would have access to preventative care and early treatment. As opposed to now, where people can’t afford to see a doctor when a problem arises. Instead, they wait until it’s grown into a massive expenditure that causes them to be an even bigger drain on society when they are finally forced to seek even more expensive treatment they can’t afford. It happens every day.
Just as there are private schools for people who want to pay for them, there could still be private doctors for people who can afford them as well. Capitalism is not going to be destroyed by free health care. That “haves” will still get to assume their superiority over the “have not” citizenry. Assuming that nobody will want to work because their health care is provided for is kind of silly, because there’s always material goods people are going to want to buy… how can you get an iPod if you don’t have a job?
For every example somebody comes up with as to the failings of free public health care, there are many success stories too. In the end, no system is going to be perfect, but just about anything is better than what we have now. Being forced to choose whether you get to eat or go to the doctor is a choice nobody should have to make in the “wealthiest nation on earth.”
Though I’m not sure the USA is the wealthiest nation on earth anymore… I haven’t checked the stock market today.
Dave2´s last blog post..Fair
I disagree with you, to an extent. I don’t necessarily think of healthcare as a “right”. That being said, I will also tell you this.
Since I was in high school, I have been a runner and an overall athletic individual. At age 40, I was still running 5 to 6 miles EVERY DAY, taught aerobics 3 times a week, was a vegetarian and also competed in archery, not to mention skateboarding, rollerblading, tennis and whatever else I did with my son or with friends. I paid my portion of health insurance premiums through my employer but rarely was sick. Then I got RA.
My RA caused all sorts of complications, being a systemic illness, and after 7 years with it I was no longer able to work outside of the home. But I still want to work, because I will never be a burden to society – it’s not in me. But BECAUSE I choose to still try to work, I can’t qualify for state or federal aid (healthcare coverage). And because I have RA, no insurance company will LET me buy coverage from them. Not that I’m not willing to pay for it – I am denied because I have an illness I never ever would have chosen to get.
And I was healthier than probably 90% of the population, followed a totally fit lifestyle with NO drugs, alcohol, or cigarettes. But what am I getting? Punished.
Where’s my incentive?
Evil Genius´s last blog post..A Little Mouse Humor
Evil Genuis, I wonder why you can’t at least get insurance that specifically doesn’t cover issues related to RA (or any other specific pre-existing condition)? It seems like there would be a market for this. I wonder if there are government regulations that prevent insurance companies from offering such plans?
Ren Maddox´s last blog post..My favorite iPhone apps
Dave 2- Since your comment indirectly referred to me as being one of the people you would like to “punch int he face” I would like to discuss why I view this as steps to socialism. When would be the point at which you would deem a nation as socialist? Would you justify everything with “well we have free parks and public school so it isn’t socialism”? This kind of thinking is what is dangerous. “Well we already have stuff anyways so let’s add on to it.”
Education is not viewed as a right. It is something that can be taken away. Neither are parks. We are arguing the “right” of something which is a pretty strong word when you look out our foundational history and it is not something to be thrown around loosely.
Funny you mention the public school system. You see what the government has done with that?
The point is, when a nation begins to legislate things as ‘rights’ in ‘fairness’ you are not far fromm socialism. That is the basis for it. I personally disagree with 99% of taxes.
Amanda´s last blog post..College life
Wow.. I could really get upset about this topic and start debate but since I came here tonight looking for funny cat pictures as a brief escape from reality, I’ll abstain (wow don’t I sound like EVERY politician)… durn it!
I cannot keep paying $498.74 per month for my own healthcare when I have no job, and I couldn’t really afford it even if I did have a job. I have no idea how families afford healthcare out of pocket.
That’s all I have to say.
Poppy´s last blog post..Well, I guess after 10 months it’s about time.
Wayne and I already had a Twitter debate about healthcare and couple weeks back (it made sitting through the horrible band Angels & Airwaves more bearable). I appreciate Wayne’s voice and even appreciate his views, even if I rarely am on the same page with him. To me, that a right we all agree upon (at least I assume we agree on that… *feet meet eggshells*)
But, I will post something here on the subject.
Dave2 made a great rebut to the “just act accordingly to stay healthy”. From personal experience, my mom got cancer… melanoma to be exact. She never spent her youth in the sun, took measures to stay healthy her entire life, lived good, didn’t smoke, never drank, never did drugs, etc etc etc… Several of her doctors studied her entire life history (that was documented as far back as when she was 20) and determined that there was no reason she should have contracted melanoma. So, here’s someone that “acted accordingly” to be healthy her entire life and she dies at the age of 83 of cancer.
Given that, she should have expected the right of a government sponsored health care? I don’t know… how much did the government want her around for her taxes (she still worked up until 4 months before she died)? Some of her cancer treatments were covered by the healthcare program she was under. Medicare, which is government sponsored, covered even less.
So now you are saying “See Marty, there’s your answer right there… government shouldn’t be in the business of providing healthcare” But to that I say, it just needs to be managed better.
One of my mom’s friend’s died at the age of 75. Not from cancer, but from a car accident. She was supposed to have gotten better. A broken hip, but her health insurance dropped her. She worked for years and still was working at the time of the accident. But because they determined a pre-existing condition, they didn’t cover the needed surgery to repair her. Infection set in and she passed on. Her children, got the bill for everything – not covered – over $85,000 in various costs.
My mom’s treatment, even under her healthcare provided by the school she worked at for more than 20 years, would regularly turn down doctor recommended treatments.
So if it wasn’t the government helping out and her HMO didn’t care, how does one get decent coverage that helps people “act accordingly” to stay healthy? Wayne’s answer to me in Twitter that night was “volunteer”, and compared it to how a volunteer fireman donates their time.
I personally thanked over 10 doctors that donated as much of their time as they could when HMO and Medicare would deny coverage. How much time? I don’t know, but it was little things here and there. Could this work? Sure if, at least 80% of all licensed medical personnel would donate their time. Problem solved.
So where are all of these working nurses, doctors, surgeons and specialists donating their time? Are they just being nice and humble and no one knows about them? Google sure doesn’t, at least not in large numbers. It’s a nice act of charity to help someone out, but can it be viable? When the sick need help (and we’ve got a lot of sick in this country), who do they turn to when they have no money? What about those that scam? How much longer does someone donating their time to heal the sick when they’ve been taken advantage of numerous times? I’d like to meet such a patient and giving person. I’d like to meet 3 million of these types of people.
I know I went on longer than I wanted, but forget words of fear like “socialism” or “government funded” and start thinking of words like “solutions” and “better health care options” because even though some people like Wayne are healthy and have excellent health care provided to them by their employers, there’s a growing number of people that are working, retired and conflicted with cancer that aren’t so fortunate. I’d hate to be that person in 40 years and think of all of the things I did right in my life to be healthy and then to be sick and not get the proper care I needed.
martymankins´s last blog post..Scooter Sunday #27
Socialism dictates that there is no ownership and that everything is commonly owned, serviced, and distributed for the greater good. I do not agree with this as a viable construct for the basis of society… mostly because of what Wayne so astutely surmised: if everything is provided and everything is equal, then where is the incentive to excel?
My advocacy for free public health care has nothing to do with socialism. It in no way tells people they can’t own anything and have to share everything. It simply ensures that our society as a whole is healthy. But it’s not just because free health care is “the right thing to do” that I support it. My biggest problem is the people who don’t see a doctor before minor cheap problems become major expensive ones, simply because they can’t afford it. If they were taken care of at the very beginning, it’s far, far cheaper on society than to have them become a massive burden later. That just makes economic sense.
Health insurance, as we have it today, is broken. From my own observations, capitalism and health insurance are at odds. Square peg, round hole.
You can pick where you live, build your house, what you drive, how fast you drive it – at the end of the day, if you built a house in Florida and it gets ruined by a hurricane and your homeowner’s insurance goes through the roof, then that’s OK because it was a decision you were able to make knowing the consequences. If the insurance company tries to screw you over and deny your claim, then yeah, that really sucks, but you can always get another house.
Health insurance, however, is not so forgiving. If the insurance company screws you over, you could end up missing fingers, limbs, or even end up dead. Those are things that are not replaceable. I think that Moore movie about healthcare had the most poignant situation – some guy got two of his fingers cut off and his insurance would only pay for one to get put back on.
What’s the reason for that? To keep their profit margin up. If some guy loses a few fingers or some people die to cancers here or there, so what? There’s money to make.
Yeah…how about we cut that out. What I would like to see is social security getting the axe in favour of single-payer (or fifty-payer, more on that in a moment) health care.
Why axe social security and divert the funds to healthcare?
You can plan for your own retirement [disability, not so much...not sure how to handle that case]. You have fifty or sixty years to get that figured out and save your money.
Accidents, genetic defects, cancer…these are not things you can really plan for and they can end up costing a lot of money to treat. Health care debt is a big reason for people to declare bankruptcy. This is Not Ideal.
As far as implementation of “socalized”/”single-payer” healthcare goes…it doesn’t have to be done at a federal level. Let the states do some research and figure out how they could implement a great healthcare program. If they decide that this is something that the federal government should oversee for whatever reasons, then they can delegate that authority to Washington. If they think they can do better on their own, go for it.
You said that your views are “unpopular” around the blogosphere and while that may, or may not, be true (I don’t really know) — I’d just like to say that I absolutely agree with what you said.
Healthcare is NOT a “right” for ANYONE. Including the people that have it. I understand how expensive it is and I know what it’s like to not have health insurance. It SUCKS. While I was uninsured, I ended up having two emergency surgeries and I now have $25k I get to pay back. But here’s the thing: most doctors, hospitals, etc. have this WONDERFUL thing called a payment plan. They also have sliding scales and financial assistance for those that need it.
Also? The hospitals are required to write off a certain amount every month — and they get it back from the state. I couldn’t go into great detail about it, but my aunt – who works in collections for a big hospital in California – certainly could give you the specifics. I’m currently chipping away at my medical bills and I’ll get them paid off sooner or later. It will probably be later… like after I get through nursing school… but whatever. The point is, you don’t get turned over to collections if you can pay even $10/mth. I know how expensive healthcare is, but Americans as a whole need to stop thinking that they are *owed* anything. There’s a lot of people who work second jobs or go with three hours of sleep a night so they can work two or three jobs to get their family out of debt? It’s called sacrifice — something recent generations know nothing about. And mine is the worst. This government wasn’t founded by whiny, spoiled, snot-nosed, founding fathers who were in the “teenager mind-set.” They fought for our freedom, to unify the states, to keep that union intact, etc. They found compromise and they weren’t afraid to get their hands dirty. Yeah… sacrificing time with your family and your kids SUCKS; but you wouldn’t be the first, nor the last.
One last point before I step down from my soapbox, although I could go on about this for a while (I’ll spare you). Even though I don’t agree with *everything* President Bush has done… one of the big things I hear about is how people were/are so willing to “throw away their civil liberties” for security (I.e. The Patriot Act). And while that in and of itself is an entirely different issue… I find it interesting that these are the same people who are willing to “throw away” their civil liberties to ensure healthcare for themselves and their families.
You have the RIGHT to work and work hard. You have the right to purchase fairly cheap major medical insurance coverage which will protect your family from serious hardship. You have the right not to infringe on other people’s rights by allowing our government to get their grubby, greedy, hands even further into PRIVATE ENTERPRISE where they have NO business being. And FYI: I’m not talking about anyone in particular here… I’m just saying I’ve heard it from people in my own hometown, I’ve read it on the internet, yadahyadah.
Sidenote: as far as the part about cancer? Most insurance companies have a lifetime maximum. Most insurance companies will find a way to get out of covering your costs for cancer treatment. And, a lot of the drugs used to treat it are considered experimental and won’t be covered. They also come with extremely high copays… where the insurance is almost useless anyway. At least in Colorado. There is separate coverage people are investing in to cover the possibility of cancer because health insurance is ridiculous (even before the Bush Administration) when it comes to that condition anyway.
Anyway, sorry this is so long. Suffice to say… I thought your comment was an excellent response and at least one person agrees with your opinion on this.
One last thing: Miss Britt definitely wrote the most compelling argument for healthcare as a right that I’ve ever read.
Amber´s last blog post..Side Order of Family Drama, Anyone?
Interesting stuff. I read Britt’s post the day she posted it and it is very well written, as is your comment, and the others that have been written here (and there). Like you said, it’s refreshing to see people rationally and respectfully discussing such a polarizing issue.
I think I’d like to see nationalized health care. There are just too many people who can’t afford health care. No system is perfect, but the one we have now is just not working. I’ve been on both sides of the fence: working and not working. I don’t think the free enterprise system is the way to run health care.
Karl´s last blog post..I Have No Candidate
I’m not going to pretend I know enough about it (but I know a good amount since I’ve been learning more the last year or two), I just know I want to move to England or France. Just seems easier to me, less hoopla. But then again, I work for a health insurance company.
I think the discussion above has covered most of the things I would have thought to say…except, I take issue with your reading of the Constitution.
Just because certain rights aren’t clearly delineated in that document doesn’t mean they are not rights. I understand the logic behind your assertions that food, shelter, education and healthcare are not rights clearly outlined in our founding documents, but I happen to have a much more liberal (SURPRISED?!) interpretation of our Constitutional rights. I believe that these rights are *implicit* in the suggestions of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I feel like some of your comments also suggested that people who are “given” things don’t appreciate them. I don’t think that’s always the case. A sense of entitlement doesn’t, IMHO, emanate from being given too much, it emanates from a diseased value system and general ignorance. I feel if the general population of this country were aware of the fact that if they lived in another not so privileged nation that they would be eating garbage off the road, that might keep their sense of entitlement in check.
It’s easy for Americans to worry about the poor feeling “entitled” to the services of the government because they have never stared real poverty in the face. Most Americans have no concept of what it would be like to live in a country in which basic needs such as shelter, food and, yes, education were not free. I have seen this, and, my friends, it is not pretty.
Lastly, as a member of the “upper middle class,” I believe it’s in our best interest to provide basic services like these to the lower economic strata so that our society remains relatively stable. The fact is that this world will always be in a state of imbalance with regards to power and privilege. One of the reasons that I feel America is so stable is because we offset these imbalances on the governmental level. That may sound harsh in the sense that I’m advocating that people who are poor won’t cut off our heads as long as we keep their bellies full, but my study of history has shown me that this is, in fact, the most pragmatic approach a society can take.
Amanda, now wait a second… I’m telling you right now that if I could vote myself a massage, I’d do it!
I appreciate your views and also agree that it’s closer to socialism than I’d like.
Dave2, great comment. Please don’t punch me in the face
re: the avoid getting cancer piece, I said “to reduce health care costs”, not “eliminate any risk or cost.” Cancer happens. People do die. Tragedies abound, and I don’t use the word “tragedy” lightly.
Your comparison point about offering free public schooling, libraries, parks, etc as evidence of socialism isn’t complete. Yes, we offer public schooling. BASIC public schooling. ELEMENTARY school. However, if one wants college, trade skills, tutoring, mentoring, secondary schooling… one PAYS for it. Same with libraries – there’s a free library you can share with everyone else, but if you want your own encyclopedia set, you buy it. If you want a shared doctor, use it but if you want your own, pay for it. Medicare, medicaid, emergency treatment… all are already provided at some level by the government. Sure, it needs to be improved, but I very much disagree that free health care for everyone would benefit society; I think it could be it’s downfall.
Evil Genius, thank you for your story. I’m truly sorry for your situation. My question is similar to Ren’s – is it that you can’t get any insurance, or that you can’t get coverage for RA?
Ren, ditto
Raganator, I will fight for your right to enjoy LOLcats, and equal access to LOLcats. But you do not have a right to have LOLcats. It just doesn’t scale.
Poppy, just to pick nits, you said “healthcare” but I gather with that specific of a number, you mean “insurance”. You could probably get away with paying nothing for “healthcare” if you are healthy. Maybe get a cheaper policy that has higher deductibles and amounts for when you are sick? You don’t need to disclose your specific circumstances, but I guess in general I agree – you can’t keep paying that amount if you can’t afford it. The point I add – I don’t believe it’s someone else’s responsibility to pay it for you.
martymankins, I’m not sure what to say, given that we’re talking about your family member. I don’t think I can say much objectively without it becoming too personal to be useful. I can say, however, that I appreciate you taking the time to comment and put your thoughts here. I can probably summarize my thoughts without seeming too callous by just stating – people die, people get sick, we live longer than ever before, and there is no amount of money/taxation that can take away risk, pain or death.
Dave2 #2, I don’t think that what is currently proposed *is* Socialism, but it’s an incremental step towards it. Utopia (or Davetopia, as needed) is easy to dream about, and universal healthcare would be an aspect of it, but human free will ruins it. Until we can address the human free will that would spoil the blessings, we need to stay away from that attempt at blessing. Simply put, we in our current state of society cannot be trusted with such a gift as free health care.
owlmanatt, I think the broken aspects of healthcare system are the corruption and greed that permeates both ends of the spectrum. Insurance companies looking to fail to provide adequate care in favor of a profit, and consumers gouging the insurance companies with fake claims or inflated prices. I’m definitely in favor of more state control and less federal dictation, for far more things than just healthcare.
Amber, re our founding fathers – another big difference was that none of them were perpetual politicians. They all worked, ran businesses, built houses, toiled and sacrificed. Thank you very much for your thoughtful and thorough comment, and yes I also credit Britt for the initial argument put forth. I’m sure if her post had been on the attack we couldn’t have had as much constructive discource.
Karl, the great thing is – you can see nationalized health care. It’s in Canada. And Europe. And Hawaii, who just had to pull the plug on their state-funded healthcare because after a while, people stopped paying for it on their own and it bankrupted the system. What’s the Hawaiian word for foreshadowing?
Robin, I’m ok if you pretend if I pretend that you’re not pretending.
Faiqa, I agree that there are rights that aren’t deliniated in the Constitution, but as far as the ones that taxpayers should fund… if it’s not in the Constitution, it shouldn’t be funded. Again, it comes down to – 99.9% of the taxpayers agree with and support the items in the Constitution. We shouldn’t be funding things that some percentage lower than that believe in.
re: the appreciation of things given – I didn’t mean to imply that everyone is spoiled – my parents, for example, gave me much that I am forever grateful for. I think they know how grateful I am for what I’ve been given. I’m just talking about the chances of taking things for granted.
re: “entitled” and “real poverty” – I feel you’re making exactly my point with your example – how could anyone whose visited other countries even START complaining about what is available in America? It is because Americans don’t understand what reality is for many humans on the planet that I believe they’re already given too much, and need to work for more of what they get. They get a safe nation, a national road system with standards, a single common power standard (120V), ubiquitous phone, cell, communications coverage, local law enforcement that doesn’t shoot for vocal disagreement, a right to a voice in defending one’s self, government assistance grants, and on and on and on. How incredibly selfish is it for people to sit up and DEMAND healthcare for themselves to be paid for by others? It just appalls me the more I think about how much we’re given in this country already.
I’d much rather our government INCENT people to give of themselves. REDUCE my taxes so I can give more. EDUCATE more people so there are additional folks who can contribute to the healthcare system with their time and talents.
Thanx to all who made this comment love fest a success! Great, deep thoughts and I hope the conversation continues for a while.
Going without insurance is not acceptable.
Having someone else (other than my employer, heh) pay for it is not acceptable.
That said, I think money is stupid and the cost of healthcare in general is outrageous, so I am against anyone having to pay for it.
Yes, yes, it sounds like I’m a socialist. But, really, I am a member of the United Federation of Planets.
Poppy´s last blog post..I want a recount!
Marty, regarding the $85,000 bill the children received — debts are not inherited, though the estate would need to settle any debts before assets could be inherited.
I do think we may need additional legislation, or at least better oversight, to prevent insurance companies from misbehaving. That being said, it can be complicated. A nurse-friend of mine relayed a story yesterday about a patient that came in complaining of a persistent cough and during the exam it was noted that he had high blood pressure. The insurance company ended up denying the claim for the exam under the pre-existing condition clause. At first, this sounded absurd, but it turns out that his high blood pressure was a pre-existing condition and that the medication he was taking for it had a known side effect of persistent cough. I’m not sure that denying this claim is the correct behavior, but it does show (to me, at least) that sometimes the situation is more complicated than it seems.
Ren´s last blog post..My favorite iPhone apps
Poppy, I’m curious what level of coverage this is, or whether there are some specifics that are driving up the cost. I just did a search on ehealthinsurance.com and found, for example, an individual policy from Aetna (admittedly for my zip code) for $89/month. This is a high deductible ($5000) 80/20 plan, but does cover periodic health exam for a $40 co-pay without having to meet the deductible (as well as generic drugs for a $15 co-pay without having to meet the deductible). This is exactly the type of insurance I think that most people should have, and is very similar to what I have through my employer.
Now, I have heard anecdotal evidence that the cost of health insurance in New York state has sky-rocketed due to state laws that force insurance companies to take on pre-existing conditions, so maybe that is a factor in the cost you are having to pay?
Ren´s last blog post..My favorite iPhone apps
Yes, my insurance does accept pre-existing conditions, and this is COBRA from my employer so I have what they offered. I really didn’t expect to be unemployed quite this long so I was happy to go with it for a short time, but if I don’t get this job I interviewed for I’m going to need to look into other options.
Thanks, Ren.
Poppy´s last blog post..I want a recount!
BTW, the price to cover my whole family (myself, my wife and our two kids) under that same plan is $317/month.
Also, this is an HSA eligible plan, so in “healthy” years you would want to sock away as much as you could afford into the HSA to help cover the cost of future health problems that may arise.
Ren´s last blog post..My favorite iPhone apps
Ren and Whall: Nope, I cannot get “comprehensive coverage” or the normal health coverage. There are some companies who would take me on one of those “you put in the money like a savings plan and then your bills get paid out of it” programs, but see my answer to Amber, below, to see why that isn’t really feasible for me. No other “insurance” will accept me – although I could join some of the “medical discount” programs. Again, see below.
Amber: I get what you’re saying, but paying $10 a month for the bills I rack up just won’t cut it. Here’s approximately what I’d be spending without insurance…Three months worth of ONE DRUG I take (one out of 7 I’m prescribed, 5 of which are maintenance) is over $7,000. Every time I see my rheumatologist it’s $150 just for the office call, and I have to see him every 3 months (or sooner as needed). Then I have to see my endocrinologist every three months, that’s another $120, for certain complications from the RA involving my glands and thryoid. Other routine illnesses in between go to the Internal Meds doctor who works in conjunction with my specialists, and he’s a bargain at $90 for an office visit. Because of the meds I’m on, I have to have bloodwork run every month to make sure my kidneys and liver are still functioning okay, as well as my thyroid, and that’s over $100 a month. Then, there are routine x-rays to check on the damage being done by the RA, at least once or twice a year, and that’s about $900. I have no idea what all my other meds would cost on a monthly basis. WITH my current COBRA insurance, having the advantage of only paying a co-pay, I pay around $200 a month for them.
So while you’re whittling down your 25g’s, I’ll keep racking up close to 25g’s each year I have this disease (which is the rest of my life) and it’s only going to get worse because RA is progressive and health care costs continue to rise.
I’m not saying socialized medicine is the answer. I don’t believe it is. I’m not saying healthcare is a “right”, because I’m truly on the fence with that concept. I just don’t believe that people who are willing to pay for healthcare should be turned down based on an illness they can’t help having.
As it stands right now, the only incentive the government is giving me is to quit work entirely and start collecting welfare, just so I can be eligible for Medicaid. I can’t understand how anyone could believe that makes sense.
Evil Genius´s last blog post..A Little Mouse Humor
I like you and totally understand your perspective. I do think that too many Americans totally avoid any attempt to stay healthy but I also know how hard it is to stay healthy if the money isn’t there. It’s so easy when you have plenty of work and a nice health insurance plan to look down on those who don’t as lazy whiners but you could be in my position in a heartbeat (I know you don’t agree with that, and won’t until it happens).
Really, there has to be some intermediate position between the attitude that we should give everybody everything and the attitude that you don’t deserve it if you can’t afford it. My kid deserves dental visits and check-ups just as much as yours. Socialism isn’t a dirty word any more than capitalism is. They are means to ends… not ends themselves.
I think we need a new system. I think there needs to be incentive for healthy behavior. I think there needs to be some kind of copay for everybody so fewer people go to the doctor when they don’t need to. I think the government is the only entity we have that stands a chance of fixing things but I also think the chances of it really doing so are minimal.
marilyn´s last blog post..Something Completely Different
Evil Genius, Wow, that sucks a lot. This reminds me that our current focus on health insurance overlooks another big issue: people almost never have sufficient disability insurance (myself included).
I doubt there is any solution to you scenario short of finding a cure (and even that probably isn’t a complete solution as it wouldn’t likely reverse the damage that’s already been done). In this way, it isn’t dissimilar to the situation with terminal cases of cancer.
The fact that there is any treatment at all, expensive as it is, is a big part of the reason that health care costs have skyrocketed. I do not know what to do about this because restricting expensive treatments to those who can afford it certainly doesn’t seem like a system we want. Socializing this type of treatment might be the right thing to do, but that only works as long as the ailments treated thusly are fairly rare in the population.
I suspect a bit of patent reform to prevent pharmaceutical companies from keeping drugs expensive longer than they should (particularly if developed with government funding), would help somewhat. Additionally, I expect we could use some legislation to protect patients from situations were they are prescribed the new, more expensive version of a drug when there is a cheaper, though perhaps slightly less effective drug available. If Drug A is 80% effective at $3/dose and Drug B is 90% effective at $100/dose, who should pay the premium for Drug B?
Ren´s last blog post..My favorite iPhone apps
Holy moly – where’s the LOLcats again?!
But really – I lean more towards nationalized health care. I don’t really give a crap if it is a right, implied or not. The fact is, too many people go without, and that’s a downright shame. This country wastes plenty of money on stupid crap, not to ensure that people get at LEAST basic health cares covered. It bothers me that so many people get their panties in a twist because they think they’ll have to help (via taxes, or whatever) other people with health care costs. It takes a freaking village, and I am all for helping anyone out darn near any time I can – whether that’s forced on me or not.
Sybil Law´s last blog post..A Post!
Ren, you’ve hit on the closest idea I’ve been able to come up with that resembles a solution: some sort of legislation that either controls medication costs (i.e., control over pharmaceutical companies) or some sort of legislation that will not allow insurance companies to deny anyone based on a pre-existing condition. As long as you can contribute for your insurance, you should be allowed to receive it. As for people who can’t even afford to contribute, then I guess they’d at least have the Medicaid option.
It’s a far from perfect solution, but this problem is so complex and involves so many different industries/entities that I wouldn’t even know where to begin with reform. Sigh.
Evil Genius´s last blog post..A Little Mouse Humor
Wayne… I agree 100% with your reply on death. People do die eventually. Some from accidents and some from just unfortunate circumstances. And as much as I wanted my mom’s life extended for a few extra years, at 83, she lived a good long life. But, when someone contracts cancer at a young age and dies before they have a chance to even live, I’d like to hope that someone, somebody would care enough to want to help find a cure for that which took their life early. As to who’s responsibility that is, it’s obvious your position is the individual. If they die early, oh well. That’s life. I’d like to think that some sort of prevention from the collective would be nice. We make great strides in the IT industry to make things work better. I’d like to see that happen on the health care front, just spread out between multiple sources.
Ren… I don’t know the details of how that lady’s kids got stuck with the bill, but I’m assuming it was what you said. Let’s see… tax expert, inheritance guru, Mac user… And to think I read papers and books to learn stuff.
martymankins´s last blog post..Scooter Sunday #27
Marty, I’m a bit of a sponge — at least if the topic interests me, and pretty much all matters financial do.
Evil Genius (or everyone, for that matter), I think I just had an epiphany and have decided that I do support universal/national *preventative* healthcare. I’m not sure why this never occurred to me before, and I’m not sure it really helps as it doesn’t do much good to find out your sick if you don’t have insurance to cover the illness.
Obviously, this doesn’t help with the issues I’ve been most concerned about — how to deal with expensive treatments, particularly long-term treatments. But maybe it would avoid the “emergency room as a clinic” issue, which I often hear being blamed as part of the high cost of healthcare.
One of my fears is the government deciding which services we should be allowed to have. If the government begins providing free care as a “right” to citizens, you know that’s going to happen.
I remember when affordable HMO’s were all the rage. My mom suffered a concussion by hitting her head on the pointed edge of a cabinet. She was vomitting and had severe dizziness.
Her primary doctor wouldn’t approve a trip to the ER. She said it wasn’t necessary. That’s because it would’ve cost the primary doctor if she had gone.
I had similar experiences with battling for approval of visits and procedures when I had an HMO. I almost lost my fertility to endometriosis because the doctors I had didn’t want to have to pull money out of their pot to do the necessary diagnostic surgery for it.
By the time I had regular insurance, and thus had the surgery I needed, the endometriosis was all over and had almost completely taken away my ability to have children.
I don’t want the government involved in my medical decisions, and that’s bound to happen if they start paying for my care.
If the government can barely manage the welfare system, what makes them think that they can implement an entirely new system and not bungle that up? If they were to take all of the money that they put into the welfare system, all of the money they put into the joke of a social security system, all of the money that they spend on illegal aliens and all of the money they spend making sure that the murderers, rapists and pedophiles are ensured their “right” to cable tv and magazine subscriptions, and put that all into a fund to help subsidize the cost of health care for each and every single AMERICAN, then yeah, I’d support Universal Health Care (or some form of it) simply because then it would be everyone getting something rather than someone trying to convince us that it’s for the greater good of our country but the status quo never changes.
The problem with UHC is that, in the end, nothing will change. The rich will be taxed even more to help support the program, the “poor” will still be getting free health care, groceries, rent and day care for their non-job and the middle class will still make too much money to qualify for the program.
I’m starting to feel like I’m living in a country that is trying it’s hardest to create A Brave New World.
Sheila (Charm School Reject)´s last blog post..Time Flies When You’re Freaking Out
Great discussion. Whall – fundamentally I agree with your notion that “I do not think eating is a right, shelter is a right, clothing is a right…”. While one may argue that health-care is not per-se socialism, it appears to be a great leap forward in that direction.
Matt´s last blog post.."I’m From the US Government, and I’m Here to Help"
It never fails to amaze me how you and I can be so similar in some ways, yet so very, very, VERY different in others.
Again, I agree with Marilyn.
Especially this part:
“there has to be some intermediate position between the attitude that we should give everybody everything and the attitude that you don’t deserve it if you can’t afford it.”
So true.
It’s sad and cruel to assume that people who can’t afford important things (like health care) just aren’t spending their money wisely or (even worse) aren’t “working hard enough”.
I’ve always taken issue with the assumption that poor people are poor because they (1) don’t work, (2) don’t work hard enough, or (3) don’t WANT to work hard enough. There are plenty of poor people that work very hard every day, and still don’t have enough to make ends meet. It’s not because they’re wasting it. They are doing everything they can to provide for themselves and their families. Yet, with the cost of health care and insurance these days, sometimes it’s simply too far out of reach. That’s unacceptable. That needs to change.
The title of this post left a bad taste in my mouth. “The Right To Give”…. when it seems instead the idea is that people shouldn’t be “given” anything they can’t pay for.
I still adore you, Whall, really I do. (No, really!)
I love your sense of humor (in non-political mode), and your DITL’s always make me smile. You seem like a nice guy who I would probably like even more if I stalked (er, I mean, if I met you in person in a safe, well-lit place, with plenty of witnesses…).
But this is why I don’t generally comment on your political posts.
We’re just such extreme opposites in that regard, and I found myself cringing while reading your comment on Britt’s site.